The “Set It and Forget It” Path to FIRE by Your 40s

If you invest consistently, reaching FIRE (financial independence, retire early) by your mid-40sToday we’re joined by twins, Andy and Oliver who share more than just DNA. They share the ambition to achieve financial independence by age 45. Are they approaching five the same way or do they have different investing strategies? How exactly are they planning to break free from their nine to five grind a full two decades before traditional retirement age? That’s what we are going to break down in today’s episode. Hello? Hello, hello and welcome to the BiggerPockets Money podcast. My name is Mindy Jensen, and with me today is my darling friend Amber Lee Grant.Hey Mindy, how are you doing?I’m great. How are you doing? Amber Lee,I am wonderful. BiggerPockets has a goal of creating 1 million millionaires. You are in the right place if you want to get your financial house in order because we truly believe that financial freedom is attainable for everyone no matter when or where you are starting. We are so excited to be joined today by Fire devotees, Andy and Oliver. They’re known as Twin Finances in the fire community and we can’t wait to break down their money story. Welcome, Andy.Hey everyone. Really excited to be here.Awesome. Welcome Oliver.Hey everyone. Super excited to be here and talking to Mindy and Amberly.Alright, Andy and Oliver, we met at Economy or FinCon first, I think it was Economy. Yeah, we met at Economy, at Speed, friendship, and then we saw each other again at FinCon and we have finally connected and got together and I’m so excited to share your money story with our audience. So first off, Andy, tell me how you discovered financial independence, the concept?Yeah. Yeah. So I would say I first discovered it after I got my first full-time job and I was just looking on Reddit actually just about the personal finance subreddit to be specific. And yeah, I just discovered people kept talking about this fire thing. I had no idea what it was, but then after doing some research, yeah, I figured out what it was. And then long story short, now I’m here talking about fire on BiggerPockets money.And how long ago did you discover fy?I would say since around 2019, so about six years ago I would say.Okay. How did COVID affect your investment strategy? Because it sounds like you were kind of new to investing and new to fire. Did COVID make you pause and say, Ooh, maybe the stock market for me?Yeah, that’s a great question. So actually I would say it actually didn’t affect me personally too much because I had read so much about just staying the course, not panicking when the stock market is falling. And I think this was really the first true test that I had. But having read so much about fire from books and YouTube videos and from BiggerPockets, I knew that just staying the course and really doing nothing simplest was the correct thing to do. And so that’s what I ended up doing.Now that is incredibly mature of you. Oliver, how did you discover financial independence?Yeah, pretty similar story to Andy. Just when we got our first jobs, we knew we needed to save, but also the next level was that investing piece, so that’s where we have a gap. And so just reading different articles, blogs, read it, just stumbled upon it as well, but also came across for me set’s book and I think that kind of set up the foundation of how to invest and what to invest in. So pretty similar story there.Oliver, what is your fine number and when do you think you’ll achieve it?I would say right around 2 million and I would say shooting around 45 with just some assumptions built in there. Still kind of early-ish in the career, so trying to not plan too far ahead but want to have a goal to be able to set some milestones along the path. So I would say right around 2 million.What are those milestones that you’re thinking of, settings that you feel like you’re achieving your goals?So I think the first is just the classic net worth tracker, so like 500,000, a million, and maybe probably a little smaller ones as well. But I think those are kind of the big ones that I’m just kind working towards. And then I think I would like to think it’s a steady progression, but I know life happens and in the future eventually have a family, things like that. So that’s where I don’t want to be too rigid and be disappointed if I don’t make it by a certain date. But I think just kind of having those out in the field of vision is kind of my goal right now to make sure that I just stay the path.I love that you’re thinking about your future and how your goals and your path may change a little bit because it sets you up for success instead of failure. I think a lot of people think that if you’re working towards 2 million and you don’t achieve it in the exact timeframe that you set out that you’re not doing good enough or well enough. And so it’s really nice to think in advance about the ebbs and flows of life. And I can be someone I can talk to that because I recently had a child and the first year can just be who knows, very expensive, not expensive, it just depends on what’s going on. So it’s like you got to be gentle on yourself for the path to fire. You’ll get there. It just might take longer or shorter than you anticipate. Andy, what about you? What’s your fire number and when will you achieve it?Yeah, so just like Oliver, I would say it is pretty similar. I think anywhere from 2 million to two and a half just depends. So that gives us, with the 4% rule that gives us about anywhere from 80,000 to maybe 90,000 a year. But just like Oliver mentioned as well, we can’t really predict a future and maybe 80,000 is a good number in today’s dollars, but maybe in 20 years that might not be as much. So definitely on a very similar mindset where I’m trying to be as flexible as possible, but also like Oliver said, just to have a goal to make sure we’re aiming towards something. But yeah, just to make sure we stay focused and just I actually hit at least minimum. I would say that’s a good goal I feel like, and then who knows what will happen in 20 years, but I think that’s the ultimate goal.I love it. Is that 80,000 a year based on your current spend or is it just a number you made up for the future?Yeah, great question. So I would say is this a number I made up for the future? Just because from how much I spend now, from how much I spend by time 45, I think it’s going to be drastically different. Definitely have a family by the time we’ll have kids, so I’m sure my expenses will definitely increase a good bit compared to what my current expenses are.How actively are you working towards fi? Is this something that’s constantly in your mind or is it kind of set it and forget it? I know that I want to save X percentage, so I do that and then I just live my life.I would say I probably more on the lenient side of that in the sense of I definitely resonate with the set and forget it almost to a fault of I hardly ever check the stock market just because one, of course that doesn’t help, but two, even if I do, it just really, I think to me day to day, it just doesn’t bother me. I just know I’m not going to able to touch that money, so there’s no point in looking at it. So I would say it’s definitely something in the back of my mind, but at the end of the day it’s something like I want to focus on the day-to-day stuff, so that’s where more of meeting other people or just understanding high level what my goals are. But I’ve really gone to travel hacking and things like that just because that’s something more I can focus on now versus later.Yeah, I absolutely love that answer. I am married to Carl and he checks it every day because that just brings him joy. I never check it. He checks it every day, why do I have to check it? And then of course he talks to me about it, but if he’s gone for a week and we don’t talk about it, that’s okay. I have no control over what any of the stocks or funds that I own does on a day-to-day basis. So continuing, especially if it gives you anxiety. I think that if I sat there and watched it, I might start to get a little bit of anxiety, oh, we’re down today. Oh, we’re up today. Oh, we’re down today, don’t bother. You don’t need it right now. So check in. How frequently do you check in Oliver?Probably not enough to be honest. Probably once a week I’ll take high level, making sure that I think everything looks good, but honestly probably could do a little bit more. But again, trying to find that good balance of being able just to not look at it too much, but just stay on top of things and there are adjustments that are needed, I can make those, but honestly, yeah, I would say once a week, once every other week.Okay. No, I was going to suggest once a quarter when there’s a great big event in the stock market, maybe take a peek at it, but otherwise look at it when it feels comfortable to you. If you start feeling really, really anxious about it, maybe you’re looking at it too frequently.Something to think about is if you would look at it every single week in a year, that is 52 times in a year, and I don’t know if we need to look at our investments 52 times in a year. So when I quantify it in a yearly basis, it sounds actually kind of absurd. And there are people who do it every day, then you’re like 365 days a year, you’re going to look at your accounts. That seems a little much now even once every two weeks. Okay, 25 times a year. That sounds like a little more, I guess, manageable or interesting that you actually can see some change. So anyways, that’s my quick thought on that is if you put it into a whole year and what you’re spending your life doing that I don’t know if I want to spend 52 times in my life pulling up all of my different brokerage accounts, any who,I love that. I love that so much. I have a quick question. How many hours did you spend last month chasing down rent payments, sorting through piles of receipts or filling in spreadsheets? If the answer is too many, then I need to tell you about Base Lane. A trusted BiggerPockets Pro partner Baseline is an all-in-one banking and financial platform built specifically for real estate investors. Baseline automates your rent collection and uses AI powered bookkeeping to auto tag transactions for instant cashflow visibility and reporting without doing any manual expense tracking. Plus they have tons of other features like recurring payments, multi-user access, and free wires to save you time and money. Less financial busy work means more time to scale your portfolio with confidence. Sign up today at baseline.com/biggerpockets and claim your exclusive $100 bonus to kickstart your path to becoming a pro. Oliver, what is your current net worth?Yeah, so I have it broken out between a couple of different brokerage accounts and investments accounts, but just to a high level, I think it totals, and of course it ebbs and flows with the stock market, but it’s right around 190,000. So I have about 58,000 in my 401k. I have about 37,000 in my Roth, IRA 28,000 in my HSA and then 52,000 in my high yield savings account. And I recently participated in my company’s employee purchase program, so I think it’s right around 6,200 for that. And in my checking account, I have about 7,300.Okay. I find it interesting that you have $52,000 in a high yield savings account. Is that your emergency fund or are you saving for something?Emergency fund, but also I think in someone in the near future saving for something for potentially another rental property. So that’s something that I’ve just been saving for there.Ooh, you said another rental property. Do you own a rental property right now?Yes. So last year I was able to purchase my first rental property.Do you include the equity in that property in your net worth calculation?Okay, sorry, I should have clarified. No, I did not. Just to keep it a little simpler. So I did not include that in those numbers.I like to include that because that is real, even more so than my home equity, although I do include my home equity and my net worth calculations as well. That is real money that is tied up in that house that if you sold, you would collect. So something to think about going forward, you might want to include that in your net worth. Okay. Andy, what is your current net worth?Yeah, so I would say my current net worth is around 400,000, but I am including the equity into my, and basically how much I put into my one investment property as well as my primary residence. So yeah, just broken out. I have a traditional 401k, I have about 75,000. My Roth IRA has around 51,000. My HSA has around 20,000. My high yield savings account has around 26,000. My brokerage account has 21,000 and I have a checking account around 12,000. And then for one of my rental properties, I put down around 95,000. And so I’m just including just that in my net worth as well as my primary residence. I also put down about 97,000. So yeah, approximately it all equals around 400,000.Okay. And you don’t have a large high yield savings account? Do you have a specific emergency fund?Yeah, I would say my emergency fund right now is my high yield savings account just because I recently bought my primary residence, and so I’m just trying to reboot it back up at this moment.Okay. So Oliver has 190,000 in net worth, and Andy has 400,000 in net worth broken out a little bit differently. I would be curious to see what the equity is in your rental and your primary Oliver. I wonder, I bet those numbers are a lot closer than are actually conveyed right here. So just something to think about when you’re calculating your net worth. Your net worth is not necessarily your FI number. Your home equity is something that I consider as part of my net worth, but I don’t count it towards my fine number because I’m not going to sell my house to fund my lifestyle. I’m going to continue to live in my house. So I’m looking for different ways to calculate my fine number. Does that make sense?Yeah, no, that makes sense. And that’s good advice.Andy, what do you do for a living and where are you basedCurrently? I work as a software engineer and I’m currently based in Atlanta, Georgia.Excellent. Atlanta is a higher cost of living, low cost of living medium. What do you think?I would classify it as medium. I don’t think it’s a San Francisco or a New York, but it’s also not super cheap like other states. So yeah, around medium cost of living, I think.Yeah, from what I hear about it, it sounds like that lots of suburbs just like a normal city in a sense. What about you, Oliver? Where are you based and what’s your career?So I’m currently based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I am a supply chain consultant.Excellent. Ann Arbor, Michigan large university there. So high, medium, low cost of living.I would say it’s probably closer to medium. So not the rent prices aren’t too crazy here.And are you two investing in your local community in regards to your rental properties or you’ve been investing out of state?I would say it’s more local, so it’s in a city that we grew up in. We both currently don’t live there now, but we both have investment properties there.Oliver, do you have a property manager for your investment property?Yes, so we do. So I think we mentioned this in our notes, but currently our dad is actually a real estate investor and a property manager, so he helps us take care of that.Whoa, nice. Okay. Big question for you. Did you always know that you were going to invest in real estate because you watched your parents do it or specifically your father do it? Or was this something that you thought you would never do and then you just happened to find yourself in it?I would say it’s something that definitely our parents have always, ever since I, middle school, high school, ever since we got our first paying job was always like, okay, the first thing you’re going to do is get a house as soon as possible. So it’s one of those things, it was kind of not ingrained in a sense, but at the same time it’s one of those things when your parents tell you to do something, you don’t really want to do it. So it was nothing I ever took seriously. We were probably getting paid $10 an hour at our first job, so I’m like, dad, I can’t even afford to go eat out, let alone worry about saving for a house. So it was more of like, okay, yeah, sure dad, we’ll do that eventually. And then I think it was once we finally got our first full-time jobs, our parents, like I mentioned, they weren’t in corporate or anything, so I knew they didn’t really understand the 401k Roth fire, eight, things like that.
And so we knew we had to take it upon ourselves to kind of just learn as much as we could. And so that’s where we, again, like we mentioned earlier, got into fire and just learned more about that and kind of going down that rabbit hole. We of course heard about BiggerPockets and then learned more about how real estate was actually a really good investment asset. So that’s where it definitely helped at that point where we told our dad about it and he was definitely on board. So I think it worked out really well in the end.That’s really cool. Andy, what about you? Did you think that you would be investing in real estate or were you also Maybe, but not really.Yeah, I would definitely say yeah, I definitely did plan on investing in real estate just because our parents were heavily involved in real estate and they made their whole career out of it. So it seemed like a very natural progression to continue investing in real estate. So yeah, I did plan on it. Awesome.I feel like my kids will be like you two. They’ll be like, what am I doing here? Am I going to invest in real estate? Am I not? We’ll probably put them to work in the property, so they’re going to learn a lot, but then they might resent us for it. Who knows? But I love that you guys came back to it and Andy, you were always planning on doing it, but Oliver, you came back to it and you’re actually investing in properties and following in your parents’ footstep, yet also making your own path. So great job.Chad Carson is a really great example of my dad made me do it and then I fell in love with it, but I’m sure I can’t think of anybody right now who’s like, oh, my dad made me do it, therefore I am never doing it. My kids, they hate the thought of a live-in flip and they’re like, oh, when I grow up, I’m going to live in a house that’s already finished. I’m like, we’ve lived in finished houses like two or three years of your whole life so that it can be a little rough on the kids. Andy, do you have an idea of how large your real estate portfolio you want to have? Do you have a door count or an annual or monthly income and then you’ll stop buying rental properties or how does your real estate portfolio play out?Yeah, great question. I would say as of right now, yeah, I don’t think I’m one of those people who wants to own a hundred doors, to be honest. I think realistically anywhere from five, anywhere from seven, maybe to 15 over the course of my life I think would be pretty good number. Just to give context as well, we’re currently investing in long-term rentals, and so at the rate we’re going, I think that’s a pretty feasible number just because we’re putting the whole 20% down and just just doing investment properties. So not doing any live and flips or house hacking just yet, but yeah, that’s the current strategy.And Oliver, what about you? Do you have a set amount or a set income level that you’re working towards?Yeah, pretty similar answer. I want to say a set one, but I think whatever makes the most sense in my situation now. So I think Andy mentioned at the rate we’re going probably seven to 15, but of course just like earlier, anything could change. So I’m not super set on a number, but I think just having a good number just to be able to learn and understand the process is kind of what I’m shooting for.I was the community manager for BiggerPockets for six years, and I was in the forums all day every day, and I would constantly see people coming in, I am going to buy a hundred doors. How many do you have now? None. Okay, that’s a great goal. But I don’t like these hard and fast numbers. I like these ideas. Oh, I am going to buy until it doesn’t make sense to not buy anymore. I am always looking for a deal. I’m a real estate agent. I have access to the MLS, I’ve set up a search for myself. Any house in my city that pops up, I get a notification. So I keep my thumb on the pulse of the city that I’m working in, but also I drink my coffee in the morning and I go through all of the listings that popped up the night before. Oh, that’s a very interesting property. I don’t really have the bandwidth to do a flip right now, but I have a friend who wants to do flip, so maybe I’ll let them know that this is coming up, or Hey, this looks like an awesome deal. I wasn’t even looking for one, but I just bought another house. Yay. So when you have a more loose idea of what it is you want, I think it’s easier to pass on a house that isn’t quite great and it’s easier to jump on a house that you really love.I’m all about that philosophy. Mindy, I always joke that the houses find me, I don’t find them. And because I’m not a aggressive real estate investor, I think I’ve been able to wait for some seriously good houses. So I’m all about a goal and something to attain, but nothing where you’re setting all of your intention like, okay, I have to do this thing. Alright. Now that you two have an incredible base, you’ve got stuff in investments in brokerages and stock market, you also have housing. Andy, what’s your next step and where are you going from here?Yeah, no, that’s a great question and I think that’s something I’m personally still trying to figure out. But I would just say a very high level, just continuing just doing what I’m doing right now, which is investing in index funds as well as continuing to invest in real estate. But I’m also trying to find a good balance between the two. I’m not sure if I want to go more into real estate versus stocks or the other way around, but as of right now, just trying to do it even just 50 50 split. But who knows, maybe in the future if there’s a good opportunity might focus more on real estate or if the stock market crashes might buy some more stocks when it’s cheaper. So yeah, that’s the general plan right now.Nice. Andy, are you more motivated by the FI or the re?I would definitely say the fi. I really enjoy what I do as my job right now, but having the option to be FI would be amazing. So definitely focus more on the FI part.Awesome. Oliver, first are you more interested in the FI or the re?Yeah, same answer, definitely. I think I enjoy my job as well, so I’m grateful to say that I think it’s just one of those things in the future, it would be really nice to be able to, if I had to stop or for whatever reason, take a break, it’d be nice to be able to know that I could.I love it. And you’re working on something part-time for both of you together, whoever Andy or Oliver want to tell me about Twin Finance.Yeah, no, twin finance is something that started, I would say about, it’s kind of been in the works past couple years, but we started taking it more seriously once we went to economy and met all the other creators. But it is our current YouTube channel where we teach others how to set up a automated system within their finances. So we have a lot of tutorials such as simple or pretty simple things you would think, but stuff like just how to transfer money from a checking account, how to set up automatic transfers, how to set up automatic investments, things like that. I think once we got into the fire movement, we learned there’s a lot of people who tell you what to do, but they don’t necessarily show you how to do it, even if it’s something that you would think of straightforward. When we both first got into this, I had no idea how to set up an automatic transfer. I just didn’t really use those websites too much like Charles Schwas and Fidelity and things like that. So we wanted to create a resource that we wish we had when we first started. It was a lot of struggling for us, and of course we eventually did figure out how to do all that, but it would’ve been really nice to have one place where you could find all that info. So that’s currently what we’re doing now and kind of our main focus outside of real estate.I love that it took me 10 months to do a backdoor Roth IRA because I just could not understand how to do it and I didn’t understand any of the tutorials, so I had to have a friend come on Zoom and show me step-by-step how to do it. So I would very much appreciate any tutorials you have in regards to financial step-by-step guides. Thanks, Andy. Anything to add there?Yeah, not too much, but yeah, just to emphasize, yeah, our channel is exactly that. It’s just really step-by-step tutorials on how to do everything personal fines related. And just to give context on why we started it, I remember I procrastinated opening up my first Roth IRA because I just didn’t know how to do it and I didn’t know what the steps were, even though I went on the website and I tried to do it, it was just intimidating at first. And so I definitely procrastinated for a while, but that’s actually what inspired us to make the first couple of videos was just like once I figured out how to do it, I just wanted to share with others how to do the exact same thing just to show them it wasn’t as difficult or intimidating as they might think. SoYou totally hit the nail on the head there, intimidating, and then you do the first part, but then you don’t do the second follow-up for another five months and then all of a sudden it’s a new year and you’ve lost the entire contribution room. No, I haven’t done that. Yes, I have.I am on your Twin Finances YouTube channel right now, which is youtube.com/at twin finances. There’s an S on there because there’s two of them. Charles Schwab set up automatic transfers, Vanguard, how to buy a mutual fund. If you don’t know anything about this, you could get on the Vanguard website and be like, well, maybe tomorrow I can totally see how somebody would continue to push it off and push it off and push it off. And this is awesome. How to buy an ETF with Fidelity, how to buy stocks in your HSA in Fidelity. This is awesome. You’ve got your thumbnails are awesome because you’ve got the headline. If I don’t have Vanguard, I do everything in Fidelity. Great. I’ll just go onto the green Fidelity ones. Vanguard is red, Charles Schwab is blue. This is so awesome. How to view your IRA contributions. Buy an ETF in one minute. If you are not savvy in how to do all of these things, if you’re newer to financial independence, if your kids want a place to go to learn how to do this, youtube.com/at twin finances, that is such a great tutorial. I love those so much. So Andy, what is your biggest piece of advice to somebody who is just getting started today?Yeah, so I would say my biggest piece of advice for someone who’s starting from the absolute beginning is just to try to simplify as much as possible. So just to give one specific example, I remember when I first started to set up my Mint account to track all my finances, so my income and expenses, I remember that there’s a lot of different features on that app or there was anyway, such as budgets, you’re tracking income expenses, all these extra things. But I would highly recommend just sticking to very simple process, at least at the very beginning and just adding on. And so to be a little more specific, something I did at the very beginning was just to track only my income and my expenses. I didn’t even focus on trying to use all these extra features just because I just wanted to get started and build a good habit.
And then once I built that good habit, then I started to explore other features of Mint. But just to directly answer your question I, which they simplify everything, whether it’s tracking your income expenses or even just setting up automatic investments. Just set everything up as quickly as possible and just keep it simple. And then afterwards, just get into them more advanced stuff, and that way you can at least make progress versus if you try to jump in and try to do all these advanced things at the very beginning, you might end up just procrastinating and not doing anything. So that’s my one piece of advice.I love that. Oliver, what is your best piece of advice for somebody who’s just starting out?And just to piggyback off that, one of the reasons we started that YouTube channel, like we said, it was just because it’s very complicated at the beginning, but after reading Ramit’s book and it really resonated with the set and forget it mindset. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel like I probably don’t check my accounts and all that enough, but I wanted to set up an automated system in a way. You actually just never have to look if you really didn’t want to. So I would say just setting up the automatic transfers from your paycheck to your Roth I A to your 401k or HSA and things like that. I think it was really key part, and I would just not check for a couple weeks at a time and then would just see the net worth go up and like, wow, I didn’t even realize. And it was just something, I think for me, someone who’s just really lazy and I care about it enough, but I don’t care enough to check every single day. I think that was kind of the key for me. So that way I could focus on my other interests and hobbies, like the YouTube channel and other things.Alright. Besides Twin Finances on YouTube, is there any other place people can find you online? Andy, I’m going to have you answer first.Yeah, I would say one place you guys can find us is our website, like twin finances.com. We just started it, but it just has some basic information about us. But you can find more information about us on our website.Oliver, any other place besides the website or the YouTube channel? Yeah,I would say we have TikTok and Instagram as well with the same tag. It’s not as active as a YouTube channel, but in addition to some of the other finance tutorials that we put on there, we also put some credit card tutorials. So like I mentioned earlier, just gotten to travel hacking a lot in these past couple of years. So to the similar perspective of the finance tutorials is we put credit card tutorials, so things like how to transfer your credit card points from one program to another and how to do the whole travel hacking as a beginner. So I think our TikTok and Instagram are mostly focused on that, but our YouTube channel has both of those combined.Awesome. And your TikTok is also Twin Finances?Yes, that’s correct.Oliver, thank you so much for your time today. This was a lot of fun. I hope that everybody listening takes either the moment to go over and check out your content on YouTube or shares it with somebody in their life that needs the beginner tutorials that is priceless for getting started. It is so easy to see a complicated website and just say nevermind. But getting into it, getting it done. I mean, how many times have you heard this story? Amber Lee? Oh, I thought I was contributing to my Roth IRA, but was the money was just sitting there because I never invested it anywhere. I’ve heard that story too many times. So if you have a beginner in your life or if you are a beginner, check out youtube.com/at Twin Finances. Alright, Oliver, Andy, thank you so much for your time and we will talk to you soon.Thanks for the time, Mindy. Really appreciate it. Yeah, really enjoyed it. Thank you. Yeah.Okay, bye-bye. Alright, that was Andy and Oliver from Twin Finance, Amber Lee. What’d you think of the show?Absolutely loved it. I just love that they are pretty much documenting their path to starting new accounts and simplifying their finances, which I think a lot of people can really benefit from. I also love that they have very similar ideas on what they’re doing for finance, but they have different jobs and though their fine number seems to be exactly the same, we’ll see how they end up in the next 20 years.I love that even though they’re twins, they have the same trajectory as everybody else in the PHI journey. It’s not like they’re doing the same thing because they’re twins. They’re doing the same thing because that’s what needs to be done in order to get to financial independence. But like I said at the end of the show, I absolutely love their site. I love the step-by-step videos that they share that just tells you how to go and do the thing. Because we sit here in these podcasts and we’re like, oh, it’s so easy. Just open up an IRA. Well, it’s not actually so easy if you’ve never done it before, if you don’t know what you’re doing and muddling through can be the stopping factor when you’re trying to get this whole thing started. I can’t figure it out. Forget it, I’m not even going to bother. Or I’ll try next week and then next week never comes. So I love that they’ve got the step-by-step. That wraps up this episode of the BiggerPockets Money podcast. She is Amber Lee. Grant. I am Mindy Jensen saying Jump that hurdle turtle.