What Happens When Rates Drop?

Are we finally at the end stages of this harsh housing market?Hey friends, it’s Dave. Happy Holidays and welcome to On the Market. If you nerd out on real estate as much as I do, you probably already know that Logan Mohtashami is one of the sharpest housing market analysts out there. When I first started getting into real estate market housing market analysis, he’s one of the main people I started following. I still read everything that he writes, and we’ve had him on the show a couple times. The last time was back in September to talk about market dynamics at the time and what he expected to see through the end of 2024 and into 2025. And his way of looking at the housing market doesn’t just work for a particular moment in time. It really helps you understand the right lens to see the housing market through as we enter a new year. So we’re gonna bring this conversation back to your feed today. Enjoy. Logan, welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. Good to see you again. It’s good to be here. Logan, you’ve been known to come up with some colorful and fun terms for the housing market, like the savagely unhealthy housing market you had deemed it, uh, over the last few years where we sit today August of 2024. How would you describe the housing market?You know, we’re, we’re at the kind of the baby pivot stage <laugh> Okay. Of, uh, the economic cycle. To be honest, this has probably been the most confusing housing cycle for everyone out there. And, you know, one of the key differences, what’s what we are dealing with now is that the new home sales sector, especially the big publicly traded builders, are able to grow sales. They have the ability to, uh, work in a sub 6% mortgage market world, but the existing home sales market still, uh, has not been able to be tested yet in a sub 6% mortgage market world. And, and one of the things I am, I’ve been trying to do this year, and, and it’s probably to my failing, uh, over the last 14 years, talking about how I don’t think people understand how rare it is for nominal home prices to fall, going back to 1942.
And I think so much of the confusion has been that, well, if home sales crash prices have to crash because that’s what happened in, you know, 2007 to 2011. But the same variables that were very evident back then are not here now. So we’re kind of like, you know, in a, in a, in a two guys in a, in a mud fight trying to, you know, grind its way through the, who’s gonna be the winner here? Um, and it’s just one of these markets that it know, it, it’s confusing to people because you would think inventory would skyrocket and prices would fall down. But the housing dynamics shifted after November 9th, 2022. That’s kind of been my, one of my calling cards of the last few years. Home sales stopped crashing, but the existing home sales market has been stuck here around 4 million new home sales are growing. Um, so it’s a bifurcated market in that place. And we finally got kind of a, a baby pivot for the Fed, but we’ve already had mortgage rates already kind of make almost a 2% move lowerMm-hmm <affirmative>.From the highs of, uh, 2023. So it’s now, it’s really up to the labor market if the, if mortgage rates make another significant move lower. And, and the best way for me to describe this is I, I try to get people to think about the 1980s, and this is where I realized a lot of people didn’t know this. In the 1980s, home sales crashed similar to what we had here. Uh, existing home sales went from 2 million to 4 million, 4 million down to 2 million. Home prices were escalating outta control in the late seventies, even with higher rates. But even in the crash in home sales in the early 1980s with more inventory with a recession, back then home prices didn’t fall. Affordability was a little bit worse back then than it is right now. So the only thing that changed that was that affordability got better as mortgage rates went, uh, 2% plus lower back then. And then because we’re working from a very low level of sales, you can get sales to start to increase. But, uh, we quite haven’t had that sub 6% push in mortgage rates for the existing home sales market, uh, uh, to grow sales here.And can you help explain for our audience who may not be as familiar with economics as you, why home sales volume is so important? Because as investors, I think a lot of people get pricing and don’t want prices to go down, or maybe they do because they want more affordable housing, but why is the total number of home sales in a given year so critical to the health of the housing market?I would phrase it this way, the existing home sales market went into a recession on June 16th, 2022. And when we talk about a housing recession for the existing home sales market, we have to look at it in a, in a different light than the new home sales market. When sales fall, this industry is basically a transfer of commission. So as sales fall, jobs fall, but wages fall, right? So the total activity is, I’m not joking when I say this. This is the third kind of calendar year of the lowest home sales ever, right? Because we have over, you know, 300 and, uh, uh, 36 million people as a population, we have over 162 million people working if I take the non fall payroll and self-employed. Uh, so demand is very low, but also inventory is not that far from all time lows. So if you think about the housing market in this light, most sellers are buyers.Mm-hmm <affirmative>.In this context, 70 to 80% of people who sell their homes typically buy a house. That’s the functionality of the housing market. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a fluid system. We simply collapsed in 2022. We have not been able to bounce because simply the, the cost of housing is too much. So the transaction models are much different now. Now for the economics, the new home sales sector actually matters more because that’s residential construction jobs, apartment construction, jobs, remodeling, the, these things matter because in recent history, we haven’t had a job loss recession until residential construction workers lose their jobs. ’cause housing gets hit first with higher rates, and then it, it recovers first with lower rates.Mm-hmm <affirmative>.Uh, so the fact that existing home sales are still this low just shows that the, as a country, we’re not buying a, selling a lot of homes as an industry. The incomes in industry is simply collapsed and not have come back. And you see it, uh, uh, uh, in the kind of the mortgage, uh, and real estate industry getting hit the hardest, uh, e even in an economic expansion. So that’s kind of the relative importance of the housing cycle. But the existing home sale market is much different than the new home sales market. The new home sales market means a little bit more to the economic cycleFor sure. Yeah. New construction obviously plays a big role in GDP. Uh, I think for our audience, they’re probably not as involved in new construction, but obviously wanna know what’s going on in sort of a macroeconomic level here. It’s time for a quick ad break, and then we’re going to get into the state of housing inventory when we get back. <silence> Welcome back to on the Market. Let’s jump back in. Logan, I, you know, through the first half of the year, we were starting to see a little bit of inventory improvement. It was starting to feel like there is a little bit of a loosening going on, but it seems like in the last couple of weeks that is starting to reverse course. Is that what you’re seeing here?Well, I, I always say, you know, when I, when I give my TV interviews, I always say that the best story for 2024 is that inventory has been growing. We did not have a functioning housing cycle with inventory. So our, our Altos housing wire data that we, we bring out each weekend, we only had 240,000 single family homes available for sale in March of 2022. Wow. Simply for a country this big, you just, too many people are chasing too few homes. So we don’t believe in the mortgage rate lockdown premise. We believe that higher rates, weakness and demand can increase inventory, and that’ll be a positive. People will have more choices. So that’s kind of what we saw here. So a, a simple model we use is 70 to 80% of sellers are buyers. Inventory are wash, 20 to 30% of inventory is left over. Who buys homes with mortgages? First time home buyers? Millennials started buying in 2013 as their mortgage demand grew, inventory started to fall. So if the mortgage demand is light, inventory can grow. We’ve seen this in our slope of our curves in 2022, the middle part of 2023 going on. And this year, and even with all that, we’re not back to 2019 inventory levels as a country. There’s about eight states that are, but 2019 inventory levels were like the five decade low before 2020. Mm-hmm<affirmative>. SoI would say that it, it is a healthier housing market in a sense that if mortgage rates go down, again, we don’t have to worry about prices escalating outta control anymore, because it’s not like we have 240,000 homes and mortgage rates are at 3%. Now. There’s parts of the country that are still near all time lows. I, I, I don’t consider those places very healthy. Then there’s parts of the countries, Texas, Florida, uh, new Orleans where the cost of housing is actually a little bit more than the other parts of the nation. And they also need a little bit more migration, uh, uh, than other states. And, uh, uh, I, I’m happier on the economic front because, uh, I I was not a fan of that, obviously, of that housing market, calling it savagely unhealthy. When people have more choices, when rates do fall, then you know, a lot of sellers can actually find something they want. And the process is a little bit more normal, much like we saw in the previous decade, but now it’s a little bit more stable. It’s a little bit more normal. But the last, I would say four to five weeks, uh, inventory growth has slowed, price cut, percentages have slowed. Uh, uh, we’re gonna see the seasonal peak in inventory soon, and we get to start it all over again in 2025.So, just so I make sure I understand, and everyone’s following this, you’re thinking that even if rates come down that we won’t see a huge uptick in appreciation because supply and inventory will rise with demand in a relatively proportionate way.Well, uh, prices can increase a little bit more, but the fact that we are near 2019 inventory levels as a country means that the supply and demand equilibrium is, is, is a little bit more balanced mm-hmm <affirmative>. Than it was earlier. We broke to all time lows. We couldn’t get any kind of inventory growth unless rates rose. And now at least we don’t have that same backdrop. Uh, uh, if active inventory, if our weekly active inventory was like at 300,000, I’d be having a different conversation right now. But the fact that we’re at 700,000 on our data lines, uh, means that there’s more choices out there and rates are still elevated enough to where we’re not gonna be like a V-shape recovery in demand. Like we saw during Covid Covid, you know, as soon as people thought, Hey, we’re all living, let’s go buy houses again.
We saw a very sharp comeback, uh, uh, in demand. And that was with 20 to 30 million people unemployed and, and 5 million in forbearance. I still get that question today, like, how did housing demand come back so fast with all those people unemployed? Well, there’s 133 million people still working with 3% rates, right? They’re not gonna sit there and wait. So, uh, if mortgage rates go down 2% and, and stay lower, then it kind of looks like the early eighties. But we don’t have to worry about like prices taking off like it did during covid. Um, if rates hadn’t gone up in 2022, we were actually trending an another 17 to 19% home price growth, uh, a year at that point. So that’s how savagely unhealthy that market was. So, I, I, as a data analyst, as kind of in an economic, I, I look at home prices escalating like that in, in a bad way, because all that does is it takes the future affordability.
It makes it harder because remember, we are all living in a qualified mortgage world these days, right after 2010. There’s no more exotic loan debt structures. There’s no, you literally, if you’re getting a mortgage, you have to qualify for it. So the demand is real. Uh, um, uh, it, it, it is a very, very funky housing, uh, cycle. And you really have to like, follow people that have the live data to try to make sense of it all. Because, uh, I’ve never seen so many people confused, and I’ve never seen so many terrible YouTube sites, <laugh>, they’re talking about, you know, major home crisis crashes, and it just doesn’t, it doesn’t, it doesn’t work that way. And I think one of the things I’m trying to do historically is show people like 80 years of data. Like, you know, there was one period of time in history going back to 1942 where home prices crash and the variables that were there were evident in 2000 5, 6, 7, and eight.
And the variables are not evident here. There’s, there’s places of the country where pricing is getting really weak. There’s places of the country that have to deal with variables that they’re not accustomed to, especially in parts of Florida. But as a general society, Kahill Index just said an all time high in home prices. And that confuses people because they’re inundated with fake housing experts who are telling you for year 13 now that home prices are gonna crash. And they just, there’s models for this. There’s, there’s things that have to happen first. And our job is always is to guide people, uh, on a weekly basis because we’re so much ahead of the Shiller index and the NAR home sales index that, you know, we want to get people ahead of the curve and not have them wait for kind of old stale data.Logan, before you said that you thought rates would really come down to the labor market for, can you explain that to us and how the Fed is thinking about their job of balancing employment with price stability?So my premise since the end of 2022 is that the Fed won’t pivot until the labor market breaks. Right? And, and a pivot can mean different things to other people, but for rates to actually really go down and stay lower, you’re gonna need to see labor deterioration. And the Fed has this own their own model for this. They want the Fed funds rate above the growth rate of inflation and stay there until job openings data comes down quits percentages fall. So part of part of my highlighting of my work over the last two years is like, they’re not gonna, rates aren’t gonna fall until this labor data line starts to break in.Mm-hmm <affirmative>.A few months ago was for the first time where I said, okay, we’re finally getting to the levels to where the Fed can actually go, okay, we did enough damage to the labor market. Labor market breaking though, is a different thing. Breaking labor markets means jobless claims start to take off. What’s happened is that the growth rate of job creation has finally come down to the levels that I’ve been looking for after these recent revisions. But again, the bond market always gets ahead of the Fed. And the fact that mortgage rates are already here without one rate cut looks pretty normal. Uh, but going out in the future, you’re gonna need to see more kind of labor market deterioration to get that next stage lower. Because if you look at economic cycles, the bond market and mortgage rates kind of go up and down in a cycle, but then when the recession happens, you get another leg lower.
We haven’t broken in the labor market yet because the Fed has already told people, we, we tracked jobless claims if jobless claims were, you know, near 300,000. Right now we’re all having a different discussion, but they’re not yet. So the big move in rates have kind of already happened. Now we have to focus on all the economic data even more with a bigger scope, because now the Fed has basically said, okay, okay, we cry, uncle. The labor market is deteriorate enough. We’ll cut rates, but we’ll keep an eye on it because if it starts to really break, uh, then we’ll get more aggressive. Well, if the labor market really breaks, the bond market’s not gonna wait for the next fed meeting, 10 year yield goes down, mortgage rates go down with it.Mm-hmm <affirmative>.Uh, uh, and one of the beneficial stories of this year, which wasn’t the case last year, last year, I thought the mortgage spreads getting to, uh, cycle highs. It was very negative for the housing market. Uh, here the spreads have gotten better, just for people who don’t know. The spread is the difference between the 10 year yield and 30 year mortgage rate. Historically, going back to the early 1970s, it’s like 1.6 to 1.8%. Last year, it got up to over over 3%, which is a very high historical level. That meant mortgage rates were higher than what they normally would be, but they’re better this year. If the spreads get normal and the 10 year yield goes down a little bit, your sub 5% mortgage rates that has worked for the builders, the builders have been able to grow sales, uh, uh, in a sub 6% mortgage market. Well, the existing home sales, on the other hand, has not had that luxury one time since, uh, uh, mortgage rates, uh, got above 6% and stayed above theirs, uh, toward the end of 2022.Thank you for explaining that and just wanna make sure that everyone understands that last thing that you just said about the spreads. Basically, you know, the Fed controls the federal funds rate. They do not control mortgage rates. They do not control bond yields. Mortgage rates are most closely correlated yields on 10 year US treasuries, and there’s something called the risk premium between the bond yields and mortgage backed securities. And usually it’s about 2% hun, 1.9%. So basically, if you, uh, you know, if you take a 10 year US bond, it’s mortgage rates are gonna be roughly 2% above that for the last couple years due to all sorts of factors. Inflation risk, uh, you know, some dynamics in the mortgage backed securities market that’s gone up to 250 basis points, it was actually up to almost 300 basis points. And so that is creating the scenario where mortgage rates are even higher than bond yields and the federal funds rate would normally have them. And so what Logan is saying is that there is room for the mortgage rates to come down, even without bond yields moving, even without the federal funds rate moving, because the spread can go back to closer to historical rates. So just wanted to, to make sure everyone followed that. So Logan, obviously you, you have, you followed this up super closely. Do you have an estimate for where we’ll see mortgage rates, let’s say by the end of this year, 2024?So when I do my forecast, I don’t ever really target mortgage rates. I target ranges with a 10 year yield and where mortgage rates should be because I’m such a nerd that I track this stuff daily and that if something changes, I need to explain why. So the, the forecast for this year was r rates should be in a range between seven and a quarter to uh, uh, 5.75. So I can only go as low as 5.75, uh, uh, with mortgage rates this year are going toward, and for me to get a little bit more bullish on mortgage rates going lower, I need to see, uh, labor market getting softer and the spreads getting better. And that’s something the spread’s getting better. The, when the Fed starts its rate cuts cycle. And remember you got, people have to remember this. The Fed will tell you this right now.
Even if the Fed had cut rates three times, there’s still restrictive policy in their minds, right? Because the Fed funds rate is so much, uh, higher than the growth rate of inflation. But if the Fed starts cutting rates as spreads, get better, if the labor market starts to deteriorate, you can get into that kind of low 5% mortgage market. So we’re, we’re, we’re looking at the, all the labor data to fi figure out that trigger, but we quite have not gotten to the low level range. I think it’s really hard for the 10 year yield, especially people that follow our work to get below 3.8% unless the labor market starts to deteriorate. We keep on bouncing off that line. So, uh, everyone should focus on labor data and fed talk about the labor data that would be your key for the next leg mover move lower.
Because in a sense, we’ve already had mortgage rates actually fall almost 2% from the very, very high levels of what we saw in 2023 to the very low levels that we saw recently. So we already had that big move. But to get that next move lower, you’re gonna need to see more economic weakness. You’re need to see the spreads get better. You’re gonna need to see the federal reserves start to talk more dovish and, and, and get there. And to me, still, they revolve their economic mindset around the labor market. We all see it now. They’re talking about it more and more. Uh, the growth rate of inflation fell last year already. So I, I always do this paper, rock, scissors, labor market over inflation. That’s how we should think about it over the next 16 months. So you can get to the low 5%, but you really do need to see the labor market start to get weaker. And you need the spreads to get better to get you there. ’cause we’ve already had this really big move in mortgage rates already.And what happens if the labor market doesn’t break?Rates are gonna stay more elevated than people think until the Fed policy really changes. Now, I would, I would say this, the Fed in their own minds believe that they’re still very restrictive. They wanna kind of get down to neutral and they’re completely fine with getting down to neutral. That might take some time if the labor market doesn’t break, it could take us all the way down to 2026 and rates can slowly start to move lower by the spreads getting better. But if the jobless claims and the labor market data starts to break the 10 year yield and mortgage rates are gonna go faster than the Fed. So that’s why I, I always try to get people to focus on the labor market now. ’cause I know for real estate it’s, it’s different. But everyone can see that mortgage rates really matter now more than, than any other time in recent history.
And to get that another leg lower, you’re gonna need the labor data to get weaker. You need to get the spreads to be better. Um, we’ve already had such a big move, you know, the history of economic cycles. Usually when the, when the market believes the Fed has done hiking rates, you really get like a big rally in bond markets and mortgage rates go lower. We kind of already had that. So the next stage is really the economic data. So you could slowly move down lower if the labor market doesn’t break, but, uh, there’s limits until the fed really pivots. So that’s why I, I try to get people to focus on labor data. ’cause it does explain lower the lower mortgage rates we’ve had, uh, since the, uh, uh, start of June, the labor market started getting softer and softer, uh, even before the revisions were, uh, uh, negative.Yeah, watching those negative revisions has been interesting. It definitely makes you wonder what the fed, uh, how, how aggressive they’re gonna be over the next couple of months. We are gonna take one last quick break, but as a reminder, we put out news data information, just like what you hear on, on the market almost every single day on the BiggerPockets blog. So if you want more of this UpToDate information, check out biggerpockets.com/blog. We’ll be right back. Thanks for sticking with us. We’re back with Logan Mohtashami. Logan, the last question I have for you is just about affordability because, uh, I am imagining that if rates do come down, the labor market breaks, rates come, we’ll start to see some appreciation. Uh, or if the labor market doesn’t break, we’ll see rates stay high and prices might still keep growing. So do you see anything that may meaningfully improve affordability in the housing market in the near term?I, I go back to the, to the early 1980s, you need mortgage rates to go lower, 2.5% plus mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or two to two and a half percent and stay there. Every economic cycle that we’ve worked with over the last four or five decades, there’s a rate range and then the economy gets weaker and then mortgage rates make a 2% move lower and they stay in there. So the only time I could see where affordability could match today is the early eighties. And you had rates go, uh, much lower and stay lower. And that in itself makes housing more affordable because the cost of debt goes down. Mm-hmm<affirmative>.And even back then, uh, when people said, oh my, it was an affordability crisis, nobody’s gonna buy homes, da da, you know, uh, when rates finally fell, demand picked up. ’cause you’re working from a very low level. So you’re gonna need to see at least, uh, uh, kind of rates between four to 6% and stay there. And then as the longer they stay there, the more people start to plan about their home, uh, selling and buying process. It’s worked for the builders, right? The builders have been able to grow sales, uh, since 2022, uh, because they actually can work in a sub 6% mortgage raise. That’s the only thing I can give. Uh, of course there’s, there’s places like, you know, Austin has fallen, fallen almost 20% from the peak, but rates are still elevated enough to where it’s not in a sense a buyer’s market where buyers feel like they’re getting a deal.
So when rates fall down though, then you get the affordability, then the buyer pool picks up like for every 1% when you get a, you get a bigger buyer pool. And we always have to remember housing is very seasonal. Uh, the purchase application data for the existing home sales market, usually the, the seasonal heat months are the second week of January to the, uh, first week of May, after may volumes total. Uh, volumes fall. What’s happened in the last few years is that we’ve had this big move lower in rates toward the end of the year. Uh, now recently, right now we just had it in summer, right? So we’re kind of past the seasonal time. So there’s limits to what you can do, even with low rates. Like I, I know a lot of people have been saying, well, well we thought housing demand would pick up more.
Well, it kind of has. But we, we have to remember this is a very seasonal sector. So if you got a mortgage market between six to 4% and stay, stay there like it has in previous cycles like it did in the early eighties where rates came down from 18, 16, 14, then you could grow sales in that matter. But again, we’re only talking about this ’cause we’re at record low levels of sales. It’s very low bars. So you could bounce from there. Uh, uh, that’s the fastest way because especially in the early 19 days, we did not see home prices fall and we had a lot more inventory back then. We had a recession, mortgage rates were higher and affordability was slightly worse. But here, uh, we just have a lot of home buyers. I I will give you guys an estimate here. We’re missing about 4.2 to 4.7 million home buyers that would’ve traditionally be here if home prices didn’t escalate outta control and, and mortgage rates didn’t. So about 1.3 to 1.7 million per year from 20 22, 20 23, and 2024. So you have the demographic buyer right there. It’s just an affordability thing, right? And then, uh, uh, there’s more inventory now than it was the last two years. So there’s more choices, but it’s really gonna take rates. And for that to happen, as of now still the labor market has to get, uh, softer.Got it. Thank you Logan. It’s super helpful. So basically for affordability to improve, we need to see rates come down a little bit more for rates to come down a little bit more. We need to see more, uh, a weaker labor market, more sort of recessionary type conditions. Uh, and uh, we just don’t know if and when that might happen. So we’re just gonna have to be patient and wait and see. Logan, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. We’ll make sure to put all links to Logan’s great work on HousingWire in the show notes below. Logan. Thanks again.Pleasure to here.Alright, another big thanks to Logan as promised, I did just want to briefly summarize some of the main takeaways at least that I found from the conversation with Logan. Basically what he says is that the market is a little bit healthier than it had been in parts of 2022 and 2023 because we’re seeing a slow but steady increase in inventory, but we’re still plagued by low inventory at a historical level and uncertainty on the future of mortgage rates. And because of that, the momentum we saw in inventory throughout 2024, it’s threatening to slow down as rates start to come back down and more demand comes back into the market. So that’s sort of where we are today, but I think we all really wanna know what to expect looking forward. And Logan has boldly given us a mortgage forecast, but it’s honestly pretty wide. He said high fives to low sevens, honestly, nothing too revolutionary there.
I think that’s a pretty broad, well accepted consensus view. But I did have three main takeaways that I found super valuable from this conversation. First and foremost, one of the questions and things that constantly comes up these days is people say that as soon as rates drop home, appreciation’s gonna go back through the roof. Logan doesn’t think so. Logan doesn’t expect housing prices to explode even if rates come down because as rates come down, he thinks more sellers will come into the market and we will maintain in some relative sense, some equilibrium between buyers and sellers in the housing market. So that to me was the hottest take, most interesting thing to keep in mind because I think on social media, probably on this podcast you hear many of us say that when rates come down home, prices will go up and Logan thinks so, but not maybe by as much as other people are expecting.
The second thing is that the depth of rate declines will come down to the labor market and most specifically new unemployment claims. And we’ve talked about this a bunch on the show that the Fed has this balancing act to do and they pay close attention to the labor market. But I love that Logan was basically telling us exactly what the Fed is going to be looking at. Because if you wanna forecast the market for yourself or stay on top of the trends as closely as possible, keep an eye on those new unemployment claims. The last thing was a little bit disappointing to hear, honestly, when he said that affordability won’t improve unless interest rates come down more. And he basically said into the mid fives, and we’re still a ways away from that because even though rates have come down like 1%, one point half percent from their peak, you know, a lot of that is movement ahead of the Fed activity.
And as he said, in order to get a quote unquote leg down, which means another significant movement down in mortgage rates, we need to see a much weaker labor market. So it kind of creates this trade off, right, because we, most of us wanna see improvement to the affordability in the housing market, but that’s gonna come with a weaker labor market. And a weaker overall economic picture could even be a recession. So you have to remember that mortgage rates don’t go down for no reason. The fed usually lowers rates in reaction to adverse economic conditions. And you know, that has its own set of challenges, uh, that most people don’t want to see. So just a reminder that nothing is perfect, there’s never gonna be this magical point where, uh, rates are perfect, home prices are going up great, and the labor market is perfect. That just doesn’t really exist. It’s all always in flux, which is why we have this podcast and why we have guests like Logan come on to help us understand what’s going on. Thank you all so much for listening. Really appreciate each and every one of you for BiggerPockets. I’m Dave Meyer. See you next time.