I Traded My Rentals for “Passive” Real Estate (Worth It?)

Want passive incomeThis investor found a strategy to make his real estate portfolio almost completely passive. Now he can sit back, reap the benefits and enjoy the lifestyle of financial freedom that he wanted to achieve when he first got into real estate. Let’s hear exactly how he did it. Hey everyone. I’m Dave Meyer, head of real estate investing at BiggerPockets. I’ve been buying rental properties for more than 15 years, and on this show we teach you how to achieve financial freedom through real estate investing. Today’s guest on the show is investor Chris Lopez. Chris was last on the show on episode 6, 6 2 in 2022, so I wanted to catch up with him and hear how his real estate journey has progressed. And what I learned is that Chris has moved more of his portfolio into passive investing during the last few years, almost a decade into his real estate career.
He realized that the return he was getting on the time it took him to actually acquire and manage his properties was as low as $20 per hour. So Chris made big changes and redeployed his capital into passive investments that allowed him to maintain all the benefits of real estate, like cashflow, tax advantages, appreciation without all the hands on work. I was really interested to hear how he did this and he has some great advice for how you can make a similar transition in your own portfolio if you’re in a similar situation. So let’s bring on Chris. Chris, welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. Thanks for being here again,Dude, I’m glad to be back on the podcast and talk shop with you today. Dave.Yes, this is going to be a great time. If you guys don’t know Chris, he’s been a friend and contributor to BiggerPockets for a long time. You were on episode 6 62, so if you want to know more about him, go back and check that out. But for people who haven’t listened to that episode, maybe let’s just start at the beginning here. Chris, tell us a little bit about why you got invested, where you were at that point in your life when you started on this journey.I went to college at Virginia Tech, so go hokey and went there for engineering and military and realized both of those were not the calling for me in life. And then a lot of people, I read the purple book, rich Dad, poor Dad, and that opened my eyes to entrepreneurship and investing. And so I got extremely interested in real estate back then and that was like 2002, 2003 timeframe. So all these amazing resources went around. So I tried to get into real estate back then, just no traction. So I went down the entrepreneur, I was going to make money first and I learned how to invest it. And so I built a great business through the internet marketing. I thought I had achieved financial freedom. I actually graduated college not needing a job. I was making probably like 35, $40,000 back thenRight out of collegeAnd I could live anywhere I wanted to. I worked from my Skype and phones back then. If any listeners remember those things.I do. Yes.Okay, there youGo. I could still hear the Skype noise that it made when you would call people. It was very distinct.Well, business income is not investment income like real estate or stock market income. It eventually, unless you’re an apple or something, eventually it fades away. This was 2010 timeframe. The real estate market was just coming out of the great financial crisis. I’d always want to get into real estate. And I was like, dude, get back into real estate. That’s the long-term month. That’s not this quick day trade that’s hard to do real estate, if I do for 20 years, I feel like I can become financially free. I tried wholesaling, hated that. And then I got into brokerage and I realized that’s where I really hit my groove. I was in the Denver market and I started doing one to 40 net residential brokerage. And this really mapped with me because I’m all about how can I build wealth in the long run in real estate? I don’t care about a quick buck flipping or quick buck here, how you make my money today, but I want to build that long-term wealth. And I think rental properties are about the best way, one of the best ways to build wealth in real estate. I was like, man, 5, 7, 10 years I can keep buying properties. The market does its thing and I’ll get rich over 10, 20 years. And so that really set me off on my career and as well as my building a rental property portfolio asWell. So let’s talk about what you did. It sounds like you don’t want to be reactive. So you turned to rental properties. I was investing in Denver around the same time. What year was this by the way, when you were starting to buy?2015.Okay, and what’d you start buying?I really started focusing then since I’m more of a finance mindset is when I bought my first property. I bought my very first house hack in 2011. I didn’t know was a house hack, I didn’t know anything. I just knew it was way cheaper than renting. So I bought a property then and I was like, wow, I bought this place for so cheap $67,000 and during the bubble before it was trading for 2 30, 2 40 price range. So I got a foreclosure, huge discount. I was like, I’m going to just pay this thing off and I’ll have the cashflow forever. Well, for people who investing in Denver like you and me or other markets, we would hit this phenomenon where we’d have so much appreciation that cap rates would compress and it’s like, okay, great. I’m worth $400,000 on paper on this property, but it’s cashflowing $400 a month now or it’s paid off, it’ll cashflow $1,500 a month, which is really good, but I’m only need 10 or 20 of those properties to retire where I want to.And that’s not a particularly efficient use of $400,000.And that’s where you run into, and this is one of my mentors out here, he started explaining to me the concept on return on equity.HeWas like, look, when you buy a property, everyone talks about return on investment. Hey, you put $10,000 down, a hundred thousand dollars down, whatever it is. And in year one you make this cash on cash or you’re cash on cash and appreciation. You make all this here, but he is after a couple years, you have to look at not what money you put into there, but what equity you have in the deal. That’s your real opportunity cost. That’s your real estate piggy bank. I remember he walked me this on my house hack I bought, which was actually I bought for 0% down. So it’s actually getting an infinite return, which was really cool to brag to my friends. Really cool to talk on aPodcast. Yes, you should brag to your friends about that. That’s awesome.But here’s the comedy of it. When I was looking, when my mentor started teaching this, I had an instant return on here, but I looked at return on equity, which is the four ways. Make money in real estate appreciation, cashflow, debt pay down, and principal reduction, divide by equity. I had 200 and thousand dollars in equity. I was making a seven or 8% return on my equity. So I had an infant return over here, but I also had an 8% return over here. And he was like, Hey, the 8% returns the accurate one because that $200,000 is real money if you cash out refi or sell it. And then here was the kicker, he was like, here’s another way to look at it, Chris, what’s the historic stock market return of the s and p 500? I was like nine, 10, 11%. He goes, yeah. He goes, you’re making that property is making you less in the stock market and you have personal liability. And I was like, and you’re working on it. Yeah, exactly. I was like, oh, that hit me hard. Yeah, totally. Right. And so that was just a powerful mindset shift for me that I went through in my journey of building rental properties and then realizing, oh, if we’re an appreciating market like Denver versus a Midwest market like Ohio where their cashflow were appreciation, I have to extract that equity
And then go buy another property. So I started doing cash out refis. I started doing selling 10 31 exchanges to go out there and redeploy the equity. And that was how I really juiced my rental portfolio. And I got really focused on optimizing the equity in my portfolio and fill out my clients in Denver back then.Chris, I think we have a lot of similarities in our real estate investing story. I learned the same lesson and I want to be clear, it is a good problem to have. If you have too much equity in a property, that means you’ve probably built your net worth pretty significantly. It’s just that if you think about your rate of return, which as investors, we should be thinking about how efficiently is our capital earning us more money? That’s your rate of return. And when you figure that out, like anything, there’s en numerator and there’s a denominator. So when you start and you think your cash flows, let’s just use easy numbers here, $10,000 a year, you put a hundred thousand dollars into that property, well, your rate of return, your cash on cash return and your return on equity at that point are all the same, right?
It’s 10%. But over time, that denominator that a hundred thousand dollars grows not from a hundred thousand to 150 to 200 to 300. I’m not saying you actually put more money into that deal, but because you bought in a great place and you’re in a market like Denver, that value that you have in there is growing and growing and growing. So you have to shift your mindset and not think, oh man, I’m still making a 10% cash on cash return. Now, maybe let’s just say you’re making $15,000 a year in cashflow, but your equity is $300,000 a year. Your return on equity dropped from 10% to 5%. And again, this is a good problem to have, but it means that if you redeploy your capital, you could probably be making more money more efficiently. And Chris, I did this for the first six years of my investing career too.
I had this one property built so much equity and I was like, this is it. I’m good. I’m rock solid, nothing can touch this property. And then my sixth year of investing, I joined working at BiggerPockets full-time and I was like, oh, I messed this up. Or you live and you learn. I could have done this more in a more optimized way. So I think this is a very common thing and I love that theme. I know you talk a lot in your content about this idea of return on equity, and I totally agree it’s a much better and more important metric than cash on cash return. It really allows you to just measure efficiency, not just in real estate too, but across asset classes like you said, and see if you’re actually finding deals that are worth not just your money but also your time to put into it as well.
Alright, well I want to hear what you’ve been up to recently, Chris, but we do have to take a quick break. We’ll be right back. They say real estate is passive, but if you’ve spent a Sunday night buried in spreadsheets, you know better. We hear it from investors all the time. You spend hours every month sorting through receipts and bank transactions, just trying to guess if you’re making any money. And when taxis and hits, it’s like trying to solve a Rubik’s cube blindfolded. That’s where baseline comes in. BiggerPockets official banking platform. It tags every rent, payment and expense to the right property and schedule E category as you bank. So you get tax ready financial reports in real time, not at the end of the year. You can instantly see how each unit is performing, where you’re making money and losing money and make changes while it still counts. Head over to base lane.com/biggerpockets to start protecting your profits and get a special $100 bonus when you sign up. Thanks again to our sponsor base lane. Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m here with Chris Lopez. We’ve heard Chris a little bit about your story going back in time, and if you want to hear Chris’s full story again, you can check out episode 6 62 where he shares the full thing. But I want to talk a little bit more about how your portfolio has evolved. So you are doing these residential properties it sounds like in the late 2010s. What’s been going on since then?So I was cranking with my rental portfolio, cranking with the brokerage, and then in 2019 actually made my very first passive investment, and this was with one of my buddies. I kind of call ’em like the equivalent to a gym buddy. We both grew up in real estate together. He was very successful fix and flipping now 30, 40, 50 deals a year, scaled a really good business on. And we did a lot of collaboration. We would trade back and forth on properties and deals and clients and then he started getting into multifamily like a lot of fix and flippers do because it’s really hard to scale a fix and flip business.
Hey, rather than buying 10 single family homes, go out there and buy a 10 unit apartment building and you get a lot more efficiency from operations, especially from adding value and hey, they’re all attendings for the same, a lot more efficiency. So I saw him doing that and then he started raising a little bit of money from friends and family and I was like, oh, I know you know the market, I know the steal. This is amazing. And I did my first $25,000 investment back then. And the reason I did that was for a couple reasons. I mean you may remember this, Dave, 2019 we started seeing interest rates tick up. This is all pre COVID and then cashflow was really getting almost non-existent. Denver back then.Yes,It was like, okay, well hey, I want to buy property for a 1% cash on cash, not too exciting. So the market had changed and then I had my second kid coming on the way, my second daughter, my business was taking a lot of time and so a lot of my time was spent on my business was spent on my family with my children. And then for my return on hassle or my return on sweat equity for actively managing rentals, I was no longer getting this a hundred, $203 an hour type return on my time. I was getting a $20 an hour return on my time. Well, if I’m making $20 an hour, I’m going to stop doing it or I’m going to outsource it because that’s viable to my family, or I can make way more than $20 an hour at my profession. So I had these things changing on here.
The market was shifting, I was shifting, so I was getting more interested. I was like, wow, I invested in here and I was making the same, if not maybe a little bit more money in a couple of these deals than I was in buying your rental properties. So I really stopped buying rentals over next year or two and started taking the down payment money, doing more LP syndication investments. And a couple years into that actually started selling some of my rental properties to then move the equity from Denver rental markets where I was getting a low ROE over towards passive investments where I was just getting a better rate of return.So tell us a little bit about the kinds of passive deals that you’ve done in the last few years.I dabble a lot obviously. So I did a lot of small investments and a few very big investments. So a lot of like $25,000 type investments for perspective on there.And just to call out everyone, $25,000, still a lot, but for a lot of passive investments for a big deal, if you’re investing in a big massive deal, sometimes the minimum requirement is a hundred thousand dollars. So I just want to put this in perspective that when Chris says a small deal, still a lot of money, but for a passive investment that is a small amount of money, whereas a lot of them require much more than that.Yes. And it was a small relative to a Denver down payment as well.Yeah, at thatPoint for sure. So I did a lot of investments like that, a lot of multifamily value add, typical things a lot of people did, and that’s basically people buying an apartment building and doing a burr on there, buy the apartment building Burt and a year, year and a half, it’s renovated. Rents are increased by 30, 40, 50% and you start getting some really good cashflow distributions. A lot of those investments invest in some development deals for residential development, apartment development, a lot of debt funds. So a lot of people from with hard moneyLenders, sameHard money lenders get their money from private investors. They’re not getting it from Wall Street. They get it from people like me and Dave and our 4 0 1 Ks. A lot of times they’re IRAs and so they take the money and then they’re lending it out to fix and flippers and people who need bridge debt and then a lot of other just deals. But those are the main asset classes I focus on because I had relative knowledge on there and also had a really good network of people that I could find deals from that way as well. And I did some other smaller deals too, just kind of test the water and learn about it.That’s great. Again, man, dude, we got to hang out next time in Endeavor. We’ve sort of done the same exact stuff. I think it makes so much sense. I’m not taking down a 20 unit multifamily property to renovate. I don’t have the skillset to do that, but I know it’s an awesome way to make money. You see people doing this successfully all the time and you want to participate and this is an awesome way to participate with very little time. And I mean we could talk a little bit about this, but in my experience, Chris, passive investing is awesome because you do a lot of upfront due diligence. You got to figure out what’s good about the deal, you got to really concentrate on the operator and make sure they know what they’re doing. But after that you kind of do nothing. You just look at quarterly financial statements and make sure that you’re on track. And of course that comes with trade-offs. You don’t have the same liquidity in a multifamily deal. Sometime in debt funds you still have liquidity or in funds, you have some liquidity, but that’s very appealing to someone who’s still doing other stuff and has other interests outside of operating a deal. So maybe Chris, just give us an example. One deal you did that you really like and maybe tell us, have there been any deals that have gone wrong?I got lots to talk about ’em both. So a deal that a couple of deals I really liked, I like investing in funds, which is a syndication, is I usually like a single investment to an apartment building. Hey, here’s a hundred unit apartment building, we need to raise 5 million for it. You invest in that. A fund will be multiple apartment buildings or multiple houses or multiple loans you lend out. So I’m a big fan of investing in funds. I’ll give you two quick examples because it creates diversification because hey, some individual deals will do really well, A lot will do towards a pro forma and one or two usually don’t go the way as planned. That’s just investing in that’s life. So I sold some Denver rentals a few years ago and invested in a value add multifamily fund with, I mean I think they have like 800, 900 doors in the portfolio on there. And of course I’m a very small owner of that, but heavy concentration in the Midwest. So I got geographic diversification,Love thatI’m getting cashflow and then really seeing how the Denver multifamily market is just going through, its 2008 right now.Yeah, it’s tough hat there.Yeah, the Midwest is they’re performing a lot better. So that fund has performed really well while a lot of Denver deals have gone south and a lot of other multifamily deals have gone sideways and I did a lot of investing into debt funds as well. Again a lot into a Midwest debt fund because I wanted geographic diversification and then they just pay out a higher debt. Funds are pure cashflow,They’re great,There’s no principal reduction,I loveIt. No tax benefits. A lot of times a double digit cashflow. And so they were paying on the higher end a lot of debt funds that was just because they’re in the Midwest where there’s less competition. The Midwest is more of a rental market. And so those were two deals that I invested extremely well on and they performed extremely well as well up to this point. And that came with my thesis of diversify away from Denver, but really leverage my knowledge as investor to go out there and find the right investments, the right operators.Well, I mean that makes a lot of sense for me. That is one of the major things about doing passive investing that I really like too is the diversification not just in asset class, but geographically I have syndications in places I’ve actually never been to, which is rare for me when I do active out of state, I definitely go visit all those places.Absolutely.But passive, if you’re working with a good operator and it looks, you and I both seem to be data nerds, you can figure out if it’s a good asset with a good operator from remote and that’s awesome. I don’t have any active holdings for example in the southeast, but a couple years ago and appreciation was exploding there. I wanted to invest there and you were able to do that and diversify and it’s super cool. What about deals that have gone wrong?I’d say compared to a lot of the horror stories you hear on the internet, I’ve fared extremely well. I have not had any deals zero out yet. I’m knocking on wood on here, no complete loss is what I mean by zero out. I did catch a couple like the phrases, a falling knife in the Denver market when things started turning in late 22, early 23. We were like, oh my gosh, we’re getting this apartment building at 150 a door. This is amazing. He’d done a bunch of deals in these areas, especially the Denver deals where I’m having the most trouble with. That’s because part of the Denver market and then also something else I put on my radar here is Colorado has had just a lot of new landlord tenant legislation come through the last couple of years and it’s made things a lot more complex. It’s made operating expenses a lot higher in terms of vacancy and how you do evictions and things like that, how you can collect some fees. And so the combination of the market going south and then the legislative headwinds really was like a double one-two punch on there.AndSo I’ve had a couple deals where distributions are paused,
But luckily this goes back to leveraging the network of the knowledges. I underwrite the operators the most because I’m trusting that person with my capital and they are really good operators in terms how they underwrite their sobs when it comes to negotiating, which is good. They’re wealthy themselves, so if things go sideways, they can feed the deal, sum themselves as well. And so hey, some deals have paused and luckily they’ve put good debt on there and probably just hopefully the plans just right out the store for the next two or three years as the mark comes back, sell at probably principle or maybe a little bit of a loss, a little bit of a gain. But we’re positioned where we can ride out the storm on those, which I’ve been very, very fortunate with.To be clear, we’re also going through a market cycle where multifamily, where a lot of syndications are concentrated is getting crushed. I mean nationally prices are down 15 to 20%. Some markets it see it worse, some markets are fine, but syndications have gotten a bad wrap I think because the whole asset class is suffering and people bought at inopportune times, not that the deal structure of a syndication, remember syndication is just a deal structure, it’s not a particular deal or a particular asset class. Syndications themselves I don’t think are the problem. It’s that the operators bought at bad times. So there might be a bad operator, there might be adverse macro conditions, but for me at least, I don’t think it’s the fault of the deal structure in that the fact that it was a syndication, you just bought the wrong asset at the wrong time,Man, they’re starting to meet some really good opportunities in both worlds out there now.Oh, I agree.What I like about the passive side now is the operators that just the underwrote deals poorly or they just weren’t good operators. Those guys are washed out now. The people who are still doing deals, they’re the people usually good operators of course always do your due diligence, look at their track record and all that stuff. I’m not giving investment advice here, but it’s weeded out a lot of the subpar operators and now I think there’s great buying opportunities in both active residential and both in commercial active in both commercial passive type deals. So I’m really excited right now. There’s pain but there’s lots of opportunity coming down the pipeline.I think it’s only going to get better for the next couple months, but I’m starting to see good deals for sure. I’m revving up, I just sold some property too to go buy more stuff. I think there’s going to be better deals out there. Anyway, I digress. I want to turn the conversation to just how people can do this. I think this transition from active investor like you were doing and I still do to passive, how do you make that transition successfully? Because I think a lot of people want to do this. Let’s get into that, but we’ve got to take one more quick break. We’ll be right back. So if you are an experienced investor considering more passive investing options, Chris is lead a five week live cohort to help you navigate the transition from landlord to limited partner. Anyone who joins the cohort will get access to two weekly live Zoom sessions starting July 28th. You’ll also get a free 90 day passive pockets trial access to portfolio analysis software and more if you want to run a full diagnostic on your current portfolio, reduce your tax burden and get a step-by-step plan to transition into passive investing. Get all the details and join the cohort with Chris at biggerpockets.com/transition.
Welcome back to the BiggerPockets podcast. I’m here with investor Chris Lopez. We’re talking about how Chris has gone from being an active investor, building his own portfolio in Denver to taking a more passive approach. And Chris, I want to talk about how our audience can follow a similar path if they want to. Like we said, there’s points of divergence in your investing career. Some people choose to go all in and become an operator. Some people just stay with the slow and steady approach that they’ve always done. But I think a lot of people are interested in this passive approach. So how do you recommend people make this transition?Measure twice or probably measure twice, be very intentional, be very data-driven. Going back to portfolio review, my framework is I load every property into a spreadsheet or software and I go through and understand, hey, what’s your return equity? And then I run through three options. You can keep the property, which means keep it as is, optimize it, pivot to an Airbnb or now room by room living or co-living is a hot strategy right now for cashflow. Hey, can I convert the property or keep it as is? Second option is can I do a cash out refinance? Can I extract the equity and then go use that cash I pulled out to invest elsewhere? The third option is you can sell the property to extract the equity and then go invest a lot. And I used to always sell in 10 31 exchange. So I get the tax benefits at 10 31 exchange where I get to defer my taxes, defer my depreciation or capture and go buy new asset. So you can sell and you can either do 10 31 exchange or you can also just sell pay taxes and invest elsewhere. So if people go through and they look at their portfolio and for each property they go through and look at these three options and then they look at their goals, it gives you an amazing, here is where I’m presently.
And then you can look at the investment opportunities you have in your market, partnerships outside the market, stocks, DST, syndications, other rental properties. You can go out there and say, Hey, I’m sitting here, what can I start doing?
And I always tell people, do a lot of what ifs and just play it out. And the great thing about real estate is you don’t have to make all these decisions and transactions in 30 days, right? Map it out and then if you got the worst performing property, it’s the biggest headache. Maybe just sell that and reposition, sell in 10 31 exchange or sell and invest in a syndication or sell. Invest in the stock market and just make one or two moves a year and over a five, seven year timeframe rebalance your portfolio. And I still own active rentals and I’m a big believer, hey, I want to have both and I like both.We talk about this a lot on the show these days. It’s like I know there’s this edict in real estate people, a lot of say never sell. I think that’s absolutely crazy. Why would you do that? Why would you hold onto something that’s not performing as well as other assets probably could. I think a lot of people just don’t want to go through the exercise that you just talked about, which is like you got to go and do the work and it’s not a ton of work. I have spreadsheets that are associated with my book that you could check out. I’m sure Chris has spreadsheets too. There are ways that you can do this. It’s not that complicated. You just have to put in a little bit of work to be able to go through and do this. But I think one of the big things that hold people up on passive investing, Chris, is just the idea of where do you find the deals, where do you find the operators and how do you vet them? So can you just give us a brief idea of how people can go about that?So two main ways I look at is your personal network as an investor. A lot of times networks will go out there and network with your investors, your professionals, everyone out there, see what deals you’re doing. Other things are like platforms, like passive Pockets. About a year ago BiggerPockets acquire passive pockets and I’m very plugged in that community. I do some podcasts over there as well. You take the resources that BiggerPockets has for active investing, they have that for passive investing and they also have a deal room too where we can see actually sponsors on there. They present their materials and a lot of times you also have community reviews and community feedback, other investors underwriting and sometimes investors have invested in previous deals with them and give you real feedback, Hey, this investor was great, or this guy, red flag, red flag, never invested with him again. So I’m a big fan of passive pockets as an amazing resource for looking at deals and learning that game.Yeah, I mean this is such a valuable thing because I’ve found in my own transition that being around other people who do syndications is super helpful. Getting advice from someone who’s super active, who’s an operator on syndications or on debt funds, it’s not really that helpful. You want to build a community or of people who are doing like-minded things, which is why we started Passive Pockets. It’s a great free resource that podcasts that Chris is on. We also have our own forums and stuff there that you can check out there as too. So that’s really good advice. What about sort of the skills that you need? You still need to underwrite these deals and they might be a little bit more complicated than buying a single family or just like a duplex?Yeah, I mean I would say for active investors out there, you probably got 80 to 90% of the skills you need to underwrite it. Because I mean, as an active investor, you know how to do rent comps. You can look at proforma and be like, Hey, a 10% increase rents every year is bs. So you have all the skills on there and you have to fill in that remaining 20% with understanding the legal structure and also understanding how to underwrite the operator because it’s like investing in Apple or a company in the stock market. When I invest in Apple, Tim Cook does not care about my opinion and I have no influence over Tim Cook. And when I invest in syndication, that operator, hey, at least they’ll take my phone call usually like Tim Cook, but I don’t have control and no input. So I am completely hands off.
So it’s really learning how to do the legal stuff and underwriting the operator like the two new skills active investors have to learn. And one of the resources. So I’ve gone through a transition myself that helps some my clients here in Denver. So a really exciting program that I get to kick off that’s kind of a joint venture between BiggerPockets and Passive Pockets is a five week active to passive cohort. So it takes through a lot of the methodical steps we talked about on the podcast today over five weeks, we go through and review people’s portfolios, your goals.WeLearn the basics of underwriting passive deals. We spend a whole week on just tax advantage strategies from running active passive, because you typically can’t do a 10 31 exchange unless you’re running a million dollar plus check. Just the way things are structured, you can’t do it. So we go through very methodically how you can go out and look at your portfolio, learn active investing, and either make your first investment or maybe start transitioning some of your rental properties and create a game plan for it. It does kick off July 28th, so it’s coming around the corner. But I am super excited to kick it off and would love to have everyone on there. Come join us.Dude, that is awesome. That is really, really valuable. I get this question all the time, people who want to make this transition. So if you want to check that out, Chris, where do they go?So biggerpockets.com/transition, we’ll take you to the course page, view all the details there, and you can reserve your spot and come join us for our July 28th kickoff.So anyone who wants to learn how to do this successfully, obviously as we’ve heard over the course of this episode, Chris is an expert in this and will be a great teacher to help guide you through the transition from active to passive investing. I wish I had this kind of help while I was trying to figure this out a couple of years ago. Chris, good luck with the cohort. It sounds like an awesome program and thanks so much for being here. This was a lot of fun having you and thanks for sharing your story.My pleasure. Thank you so much Dave.And thank you all so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets podcast. We’ll see you all next time.